Podcast: Cognitive technologies—“it's a bit like educating children”
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Retrain the brain: education should focus on areas where automation is not going to remove the work, believes Nigel Trout
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“I’ve been working 30 years in financial services and in change, I must've learned something—there must be something I can offer,” said recently retired Nigel Trout as he embarks on his new role as an industry advisor for FinTechs.
While implementing disruptive technologies at HSBC, Trout noticed robotic process automation (RPA) was not only about cost-cutting. “We quickly realized there's a very, very strong customer service element to it, because what customers hate, is errors, and mistakes, and delay, which of course happens with manual processes.”
“That really made us look at the potentials, in terms of technologies— disruptive technologies, exponential technologies, robotics, artificial intelligence, machine learning and cognitive,” he explained to AI Network Podcast host, Seth Adler.
“From facts they can learn. Experiences they go through enable them to develop. That's exactly what's happening with cognitive software”
When working with cognitive technologies, “it's a bit like educating children,” advises Trout.” You educate a child by giving it a lot of information about things that have been previously. Then you let the child have experiences to learn from. From facts they can learn. Experiences they go through enable them to develop. That's exactly what's happening with cognitive software.
Comparing change within financial series to the automobile industry Trout noticed, “20, 30 years ago, you would have a workforce in there, actually putting each individual component onto the car. Now it is completely robots, because it's not value added work. I think it's very important, that we then start to re-skill, train our workforce. Emphasize education, and then push our people up the knowledge scale, so they actually can apply their brains to things that are a bit more fulfilling.”
“We always find other areas which human beings need to go and work in. I think it's foolish to try and resist it. I think you have to embrace it, and make the most of it”
“You have to imagine a world in 50, 60 years time, when robots will be being empathetic… The world always adapts. We always find other areas which human beings need to go and work in. I think it's foolish to try and resist it. I think you have to embrace it, and make the most of it.
Read more: Banking on AI: BFSI in the age of artificial intelligence
Despite urging the banking industry to embrace such new technologies, Trout warns that we must give thought to regions where processes vulnerable to automation have been outsourced. “We will reach a point where, as an industry, we're running out of work— it will be automated. I think where we're going to see this hit first in newly developed countries, where the outsourcing industry is.
Tune in as Trout and Adler discus the importance of education and new skills when building a new automated banking industry.
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[Transcript]
Seth Adler: Nigel Trout joins us. First some supporters to thank, and thank you for listening. This episode is supported by the AIIA Network. The AI and Intelligent Automation Network is an online community, focused on building the intelligent enterprise. Content covers a broad range of issues including; digital disruption and transformation, task and robotic process automation, augmented intelligence, machine learning, and cognitive computing. Our goal is to help businesses apply these technologies, and Bill be intelligent enterprise of the future. Go to AIIA.net to join.
This episode is also supported by RPA and AI Week 2017. The world decision-makers and doers in process excellence and shared services meet in London this November, to collaborate on the direction of task automation, and augmented intelligence, share best practice, and discover strategies, tactics, and initiatives, which industry leaders are already implementing for business success. 2017 is our second year of bringing this growing, and exciting industry together. Go to rpaandaisummit.com for more.
With 30 years, and change of experience in financial services, Nigel Trout feels that he must have learned something. He notes the fact that the bigger banks continue to try to find solutions in technology, while the upstart FinTechs continue to search for scope and scale. While working at HSBC, the focus was on the cost reduction side, so Nigel and the team had to really streamline operations, which led him to a focus on the technologies, which could most readily accomplish that goal. He looked at disruptive, and exponential technologies, including machine learning, which showcases the opportunity to offer better service to the customer.
Welcome to the AI and Intelligent Automation Network, on B2BiQ. I'm your host, Seth Adler. Download episodes on AIIA.net, or through our app on iTunes, within the iTunes podcast app, in Google Play, or wherever you currently get your podcasts. Nigel Trout.
Nigel Trout: It happened on the 30th of June, actually.
Seth Adler: I mean, retirement, what is it like?
Nigel Trout: That's a great question. It's a little bit scary, actually. In the summer it's fine, because it feels normal.
I'm practicing my golf, and my golf handicap is improving. Saying that though, I actually have made some plans. I'm studying the non-Executive Director diploma, which is sponsored by the Financial Times. That's where I see myself going in the next couple of years, sitting on boards of maybe some smaller financial services companies, FinTechs, providing financial advice and guidance around change.
Seth Adler: Literally using your brain, with the information in it, to help others.
Nigel Trout: Scary isn't it?
Seth Adler: Well, no. I mean yes, it's scary for others, but not for you. It will be comfortable, I would imagine. Right?
Nigel Trout: Yeah, that's what I want to do. I do think that if you been working 30 years in financial services and in change, I must've learned something. There must be something I can offer.
Seth Adler: Indeed.
Nigel Trout: Certainly in the last few years, I've been so involved with some of the exponential technologies. The ones that are really disrupting the industry, that I think a lot of small firms won't really understand how to embrace that sort of technology in the banking industry. Certainly the FinTechs, their big problem is, how do they engage with the bigger banks, that don't really understand the culture, and the way of actually selling things into it. So I'm hoping they'll be some areas, which I can help.
Seth Adler: The most recent project you are working on was robotics, and AI, and RPA, and all this. Give us a sense of what was immediately on your desk most recently, so that we know where you're coming from.
Nigel Trout: You're right, in the last couple of years, I've been working in those areas. It was part of an overall transformation. HSBC realized that actually it was quite hard to grow revenues, so it had a lot of attention on the cost reduction side, and trying to streamline operations. That really made us look at what were the potentials, in terms of technologies. I talked about disruptive technologies, exponential technologies, robotics, artificial intelligence, machine learning, cognitive.
These were the technologies, that when we went around to conferences, and we talked to consultancies, were the ones that seem to be quick to implement, and significant benefits. So that's what I got involved in, actually leading at HSBC, programs to implement RPA. Then in the latter six months of my time at HSBC, was when we started looking at machine learning, and cognitive, and artificial intelligence.
Seth Adler: Well, let's get through the RPA stuff, which will be easier. Right?
Nigel Trout: Sure.
Seth Adler: This is simply cost-cutting. Right? This is simple process improvement. This is the easy stuff. Is getting to be table stakes, is that fair?
Nigel Trout: Yeah, I think probably to say it's only about cost-cutting is probably not completely accurate. Without any doubt, in terms of where the executive of these banks was coming from, it is about cost-cutting. What we quickly realized was, there's a very, very strong customer service element to it, because what customers hate, is errors, and mistakes, and delay, which of course happens with manual processes. Manual processes create errors. There is errors in them, delays, and that's what really impacts customer service.
Once you've actually set your rules, and the robot can go, the robot just processes, and strangely enough, doesn't make mistakes. They just follow the rules. So you immediately are actually providing better service. Of course, better service doesn't just mean happy customers, it means less rework, because nobody has, states that need to be changed, and put right. So it's not just a cost play. But initially, that's where the executive of banks were interested.
Seth Adler: Certainly, and there is customer facing element, which is not cognitive. So with RPA, I can be customer facing. I don't have to be cognitive, but I'm solving problems. Can you give us a couple of examples of, you know ...
Nigel Trout: Yeah. It’s rules-based basically. You program the software to say, "Do steps 1 to 10," and at the end of steps 1 to 10, you'll get a result. For example, banks usually have more than one product application. Different products will be on different software. If you were customer, you wanted to change your address, then at the moment, what you'll find is they have to input the information into several different systems for each product, to update the address. With robotics, the customer might enter the information online, on the internet. Then the robot can take that information, and populate it into every single product application it needs to do. You just need to tell it, which product application it needs to actually go and put the information into. No mistakes, done instantly, no chance of a customer getting his correspondence to the right address for seven products, and to the wrong address for two products.
Seth Adler: Can't happen.
Nigel Trout: Can't happen, exactly.
Seth Adler: Right, because of the rules. As far as cost savings, what can you share with us, as far as percentages, or as far as FTE? How real, how big?
Nigel Trout: In my experience, and while I was at HSBC, we probably did around 25 quite big processes. A range from about 30%, up to 80, 90%. It just depends on how much-
Seth Adler: Savings?
Nigel Trout: Yeah. It depends on how much of the process is actually inputting information into systems, without any intelligent interpretation. Or maybe gathering information from existing systems, to enable somebody to make a decision. One of the most common processes that we were looking to change in HSBC, was around looking at, know your customer, and the due diligence. Was the customer who they said they were, and were we happy actually they weren't a criminal? What we do is, we would have to into various different sources, some within the bank's own systems, and some within external systems. Gather a load of information up, which took an enormous amount of time when it was done manually, so somebody could then make a judgment call about whether or not that was a good person or bad person, or whether we wanted to do business with them.
That's a situation where, actually if 80, 90% of the job is gathering information from existing systems, with no intelligent interpretation, that's a complete saving. Then the bit of work, which actually is not the savings, is where the human beings still needs to look at that information, and do the interpretation. Where we're going, of course, in the future, is that software, the cognitive artificial intelligence, will then be able to finish off that bit of the process.
Seth Adler: Which we'll get to in a moment. Right?
Nigel Trout: Sure.
Seth Adler: The concept of technical debt came up yesterday. We're at the RPA AI BFSI Event. If there's enough letters and that letter soup for you-
Nigel Trout: Yeah, I like an acronym or two.
Seth Adler: Yeah, indeed. Interesting that that is both kind of basic programming language, technical debt is programming, that happens in programming, and of course, it can happen in RPA, because it's programming. But what it seemed to me, was that this concept of technical debt was larger in the area or automation. Is that fair, or am I over-
Nigel Trout: Yeah, to be honest, I was struggling with the whole discussion around technical debt. I wasn't quite sure what the point was that was being made yesterday.
Seth Adler: Okay. Well, it was in relation to FTE. It was in relation to working with unions. It was in relation to, "We are going automation. We have to do automation, and the reason that we have to do automation, is because we've got technical debt." So we have to right this ship. We have to do things better. We have to do things more smartly. So folks that are working for us, folks that we're working for ... The unions can then understand it in a different way, because it simply is that technical debt. Does that make sense?
Nigel Trout: Yeah. I mean, I think I probably looked at it in a slightly different perspective. In terms of why I think that the unions should be comfortable with that sort of direction, which does have a direct impact on the workforce, without any question-
Seth Adler: Indeed-
Nigel Trout:... is because actually, it's the work that really is not particularly fulfilling work. It's going to be the lower intelligent, if I may say so-
Seth Adler: That's by definition-
Nigel Trout: Yeah, exactly. Don't need to be highly qualified, don't need to provide a lot of intelligence into what they're doing. I think that sort of work in any other industry you look ... Basically, look at manufacturing has been eliminated. I've been around car plants, and you can go into car plants. 20, 30 years ago, you would have a workforce in there, actually putting each individual component onto the car. Now it is completely robots, because it's not value added work. I think that the unions in the banking and financial service industry have got those examples. They know the way that the world's going. I call it the third Industrial Revolution. I think it's very important, that we then start to re-skill, train our workforce. Emphasize education, and then push our people up the knowledge scale, so they actually can apply their brains to things that are a bit more fulfilling.
Seth Adler: I have many friends in the, excuse me, I have many friends that used to be in the music industry. That industry was completely disrupted by technology, in kind of a different way, but still, things move on don't they. Right?
Nigel Trout: Yeah.
Seth Adler: I want to come back education, but now I want to hit on this cognitive piece, because this has been a comfortable conversation, as far as RPA is concerned. We've got folks that are working on the front lines, and we're just taking away the stuff that they don't want to do, so that they can actually not be exhausted by the time, that they get to the customer facing stuff, which is really good stuff, which is really what should be their job. Okay, fine. But then you said, with the cognitive piece, that maybe even AI and automation can do that. So what are we talking about?
Nigel Trout: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that you have to imagine a world in 50, 60 years time, when robots will be being empathetic. They will be showing emotion. They will be thinking in the same way that human beings do. There is no doubt that, that's going to happen. Do you stand there and try to hold back the wave of water that's coming over you, or do you just go with it? Just look at the history of the world. The world always adapts. We always find other areas, which human beings need to go and work in. I think it's foolish to try and resist it. I think you have to embrace it, and make the most of it.
Seth Adler: That's conceptual, empirically, what were you doing in those last six months? You said you were looking at cognitive. In what areas specifically?
Nigel Trout: Yeah, so it's around decision-making. In fact, one of the areas we looked at was payment investigations, and payment repairs. Every single day, customers will be sending payments via their electronic banking into the bank, to be processed and sent to their own third parties. What happens is, is that some of those payments don't get formatted correctly, or there's something wrong with them. They effectively fall out, for a manual operator to look at and say, "Okay, I can see what the problem with that payment is. I will repair it, and I'll put it back into the clearing system. That it will actually process, and credit the customer."
When you actually analyzed what they were doing, they were applying their knowledge of payments, and what they'd learned over time and experienced, to actually spot the problem with the payment, and repair it. So what we set about doing, was actually educating the software. Saying, "These are a load of facts, which we're going to teach you, which we know already. Also, because you're cognitive, you will learn as you go along, and find errors. You'll understand what the correction to it is, so the next time it comes, you'll be able to do it yourself." The way I explain this to people is it's a bit like educating children. You educate a child by giving it a lot of information about things that have been previously. Then you let the child have experiences to learn from. So it's facts that they learn, and it's experiences, which they go through, which then enable them to develop. That's exactly what's happening with this cognitive software.
Seth Adler: You just fell off the jungle gym, and your leg hurts now. Let's review. Right?
Nigel Trout: Yeah, exactly. Exactly, what did you learn from that? It's really not a good thing to actually fall off. So how do you keep yourself stable?
Seth Adler: You ate too much dessert, and now your stomach hurts. Let's review.
Nigel Trout: It would have to be a hell of a lot dessert for my stomach to hurt, to be honest with you-
Seth Adler: Yeah well, but we're talking about a child. But yes, agreed. We're in the same boat, unfortunately. Okay fine, then these folks that are in those seats, were you able to conceive of the new and different outputs for those executives? Once automation does that part of their job, was there an additional output, an additional new really, really human thing, that we could depend on the same workers for?
Nigel Trout: I'll be really honest, at this stage of the development, of this particular tool set, we haven't given that much thought.
Seth Adler: Okay, we're too early.
Nigel Trout: I almost feel that's going to happen organically.
Seth Adler: I see.
Nigel Trout: If I look, again, from my first days when I joined the bank in 1978, and then I look now, and the tasks that were actually done then and were done now, there's things that we're doing in the bank now, which I wouldn't have even recognized the name of in 1978. So I think there's an organic development, and people will naturally train, and move, and get experience to go into those areas.
Seth Adler: Which is all well and good, with the exception of the speed issue that we mentioned. RPA, quick, and seamless, 30 to 90% savings. Some of that savings is FTE, is people. As far as AI, as far as automation is concerned, do you see, just understanding that you've got this kind of specific view, meaning I was in, and now I'm not, do you have a timeline, as far ... Okay fine, this will happen organically. But there's also going to be a tremendous amount of change very quickly. Yes, there are going to be job losses. Okay fine, maybe not all of the jobs will be lost tomorrow, but if RPA is going to be old next year, which is what we're hearing in sessions like these-
Nigel Trout: Yeah, I'm convinced of that. It's going to be old hat then.
Seth Adler: When will automation the old? Meaning, how long do we actually have to find these new skills? Then we'll get to education.
Nigel Trout: Yeah, I mean, that's a tough question to answer. I think the whole thing about exponential worlds, and we are in an exponential world of development now, is it happens so fast. It's almost breathtaking. I wouldn't even like to try to guess.
Seth Adler: But RPA has this four year arc of a life, do you see greater automation, cognizable automation, machine learning, having a longer arc? Or you don't even know, is your point?
Nigel Trout: Well, I think philosophically you can see it going on to ... It's got to try to emulate a human being in every aspect [crosstalk 00:18:26]-
Seth Adler: Every single aspect-
Nigel Trout:... a human being can think and react. Certainly the emotional side, I think is the key thing here. Nobody feels like they understand how software is going to be completely empathetic, and completely as emotional as a human being. I think until we reach that stage, it's impossible to see how it will take away every single human task. But there's no doubt that, that it's going to be getting to that point very, very fast.
Seth Adler: Yeah, sooner than you might think-
Nigel Trout: Absolutely-
Seth Adler:... if you're not in this space-
Nigel Trout: Yeah, I can't believe ... I think we're going off in a fancy Star Wars type world, but I can't imagine houses not having robots within 20, 30 years.
Seth Adler: Oh, 20, 30? That's a safe bet, certainly.
Nigel Trout: If they're going to be doing all sorts of tasks-
Seth Adler: Well, I got Alexa already.
Nigel Trout: And I've got Alexa as well. To be honest, I don't use it very much.
Seth Adler: I don't actually have Alexa, but the point being, she's already here, being used by many people. Of course, you know the Whole Foods joke?
Nigel Trout: No, go on.
Seth Adler: Alexa, buy me something from Whole Foods, "Okay, Jeff, just bought you Whole Foods." Shoot.
Nigel Trout: Yeah, and hopefully it will learn from that mistake, and next time it will get it right.
Seth Adler: It seems like that might not be a mistake, but in any case, now let's talk about education. Okay fine, this change is happening exponentially. This change is happening sooner than we think it is. This change is happening now. We have examples of it. How would you instruct someone like my sister, who has a six-year-old daughter, and four-year-old son? What ways does education need to change? The real question of investing oh so much in a four-year university degree, where you start learning something, and by four years on, who knows if you'll be actually able to apply that. What do we need to be doing in education?
Nigel Trout: Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. I've had this discussion about our operations in India. In fact, the outsourcing industry in general in India. India's growth over the last 10 years, has largely been on the back of the off-shoring, outsourcing industry. So given that, that's the first wave of automation ... Certainly when I was at HSBC, most of the processes we automated, was work that was going on in India. We were avoiding a people problem, by the fact that we were migrating more work out to India. We weren't reducing the number of people, we were just taking more and more work from our more expensive countries, and putting it out to India.
There's got to reach a point where, as an industry, they're running out of work, and it's being automated. So I think where we're going to see this hit first of all, is going to be in those newly developed countries, where the outsourcing industry is. I don't know whether the Indian government are looking at this. They should be, because it's certainly going to be an issue. So I think what governments have to do, is they have to look at actually what the syllabus is. What are the things that we're teaching people within our universities? Actually think about how we can direct them to those areas where automation, and technology is not going to actually remove the work. It's quite hard for me to conceptualize exactly what that is. I'm sure there's greater brains than mine that are working on it. But without a doubt, I think that's a serious issue for society, and for the politicians moving forward.
Seth Adler: Yeah. I think it is before university. Meaning, I think about what I learned in primary school. Most of that stuff, I needed to learn. I think about what I learned in, I call it junior high school, middle school, whatever, in between that and secondary school, or high school. Once you start getting to the end of high school, the things that you're learning there, are in your phone right now. I wonder if it is, we need to learn how to learn.
Nigel Trout: Yeah, training the mind. To be honest, I've always looked upon education, in terms of is not just about understanding facts, and learning facts. It's more about actually training the mind, as to what you then do with those facts and information. I think we have to look at the type of training that we give people, that they can actually develop skills, which enable them to manipulate information more.
Seth Adler: If the first hit is going to be those lower skilled positions, and that's going to affect, obviously society, and even tens of millions of people, this is where the universal wage, universal basic income comes in. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Nigel Trout: Wow. No, I've been fascinated by everything that's in the press at the moment about these type of industries, and the type of roles. I guess there's going to be ... There's still going to be work, which at the moment, you can't see computers doing. You can't see robots doing it. Think of a [inaudible 00:24:12], at the moment. It needs a human being. But at some point, we're going to have robots that are going to be delivering food. We're going to have delivering packages, messages. It's an exciting, scary area, but I'm not sure I've got my brain completely around it at the moment.
Seth Adler: When I think about universal basic income, universal wage, it brings me to, "Okay, let's go back to the land. Let's go back to farming." But even farming is being disrupted by automation, and drones, and et cetera.
Nigel Trout: Well, we heard this morning that one of the speakers that came from the country, and from farming stock, were saying that basically when he talks to farmers that live near him, they're whole mission in life is to automate, and eliminate every single task that goes on in the farm. They compared to now, where they were against the 1990s. They've automated such a vast of the work that's going on in the farm. I don't know what those jobs are going to be in the future. But then, if you'd asked them at the time of the Industrial Revolution, they would've said the same thing. I just have belief that what will be, will be. The world will adjust, and we will have activities for people to do in the future.
Seth Adler: It seems like the goal would be to find the most human thing that you can do, because we have to outpace automation in humanity, is what it sounds like.
Nigel Trout: Yeah.
Seth Adler: What is that answer? Who knows.
Nigel Trout: Yeah, who does know?
Seth Adler: Exactly. Let's talk again. This is good, I like it.
Nigel Trout: I'd love to. That's be great. Thank you.
Seth Adler: I got three final questions for you. I'll tell you what they are, and I'll ask you them in order. What has most surprised you at work along the way, now that you're retired? You look too young, but you did say 1978, so I feel like you kind of look good. Right?
Nigel Trout: Well, I thank you for that. I'm actually 57.
Seth Adler: Oh, so then you are, I mean, that's a little young. Right?
Nigel Trout: Yeah, it's a little young, but actually, if you look in the banking industry now, there's not that many people go on to 60 or above now. So around late 50s, actually probably, I was one of the late retirees. I know a lot of people that were going in the 50s. In fact, that's one of the great observations I've got is, I was in HSBC, and before at Midland Bank for 30 years. That does not happen anymore now. People come in. They spend two or three years, and they move from organization to organization. That was the greatest change that I saw in my time in the bank. Also, the fact that it is a young person's game. I mean, people are working in credible hours. They're running a million miles an hour, and they are needing to adjust. So the same way that technology is changing exponentially, people have got to adjust to that. Therefore, I think it is a young person's game.
Seth Adler: Yeah. I interrupted myself there. I was going to tell you what the final three questions were, and then ask you them in order, and then I just interrupted myself, which is questionable at best. But, what has most surprised you at work along the way in career? What has most surprised you in life? Then on the soundtrack of your life, one track, one song that's got to be on there. But first things first, what has most surprised you at work? You said the biggest change that you saw was, I don't want to say loyalty, but the fact that people would come and go, and that it is a young person's game. But what's most surprised you at work?
Nigel Trout: Well, I think the paternalism. Organizations used to be very paternal. I mean HSBC, I remember the people that were senior to me. They saw a very important part of their job was to develop the people under them. They took great pride in actually making sure that they had somebody that was equipped to succeed them in the future, so handing over the baton. I guess, whether I'm surprised ... I would say I'm slightly disappointed that, that's been lost. I felt I kept that going. I was very proud when I saw people that were working for me 10, 15 years ago, getting to quite senior levels. I loved the fact that quite often, they would want to come back and work for me in other roles, because they liked the way that the paternalistic, looking after them, developing them. So I think that has surprised me, and disappointed me, in terms of work.
Seth Adler: As things change, it's of course, had great societal impact. In that, if you look at a millennial, that person doesn't believe in institutions the way that you and I do. Now of course, you're much older than me, but-
Nigel Trout: Thank you-
Seth Adler: Yeah, of course, but I was born in the '70s. I'm Generation X. I remember that. I know of that world where everything worked, and we all kind of got along, and yeah, you could stay at a company for 20 or 30 years. That just isn't here.
Nigel Trout: It's much more transactional now. I've got four children, all of the age of 20, and I can see that in their attitudes, and their outlook to life. They don't believe that they're going to be joining a company for life. It's about what can that transaction give them, what can they contribute to the company during a period of time? Then they'll be looking to move to the next phase, the next company, the next experience. They talk about experiences, rather than materiality. I've noticed that with the millennials.
Seth Adler: Yeah. No, I have enacted a ... What would you like? Nothing, I would like no things. Let me just be a little bit more nomadic. You know?
Nigel Trout: Absolutely.
Seth Adler: What's most surprised you in life, because this was a big one, as far as work, but what's most surprised you in life?
Nigel Trout: Wow, what a great question. What's surprised me in life? I think what makes you happy. It's so obvious really, that materialism doesn't make you happy. What does make you happy, I think, is a sense of purpose, and a sense of belonging. I'm a big family man. I'm a very loyal person. I realized a lot of my own personal pride came from where I fitted in society, and What people thought of me, particularly people that were close to me, from a family point of view. But also, at work, and within communities. The sort of implied status that I got from being somebody that was a significant businessman, and had achieved something at work. I that surprised me to a degree, that actually it's nothing to do with materialism. It's about the impact you make on people, and how that makes you feel.
Seth Adler: Yeah, that's well said that way.
Nigel Trout: Thank you.
Seth Adler: It's essentially understanding the actual value that you're providing to a given community.
Nigel Trout: Yeah. I think that's why, people when they get older, and the children leave home, suddenly struggle in terms of actually, "What am I here to do? What's my identity? What is my purpose in life?"
Seth Adler: Yeah. Well, I think we've done well here, so you'll listen back, and you'll say, "Okay, this isn't bad actually at all."
Nigel Trout: Good.
Seth Adler: On the soundtrack of your life Nigel, one track, one song that's got to be on there.
Nigel Trout: Wow. I mean, I love music. I'm a massive, massive music fan, to be honest with you. So trying to think of what would be my favorite song, I'm trying to think of my favorite bands. Let me think of one that would be ...
Seth Adler: Now as you're going through them, maybe say out loud the Rolodex.
Nigel Trout: Yeah. I mean, I've got quite a diverse music ... I kind of really got into music around the punk era-
Seth Adler: Oh sure-
Nigel Trout: And around things like Clash, and The Jam. The Jam were massively influential to me, when I was in my late school days, and university. Going underground and that sort of music.
Seth Adler: You would be an MC5 fan, I would imagine?
Nigel Trout: Yeah, absolutely.
Seth Adler: You would have kicked out the jams?
Nigel Trout: Yeah.
Seth Adler: You would still kick out the jams, I would imagine?
Nigel Trout: Yeah. Then modern times, U2, [inaudible 00:32:45], I absolutely love them. I'm not sure there's a particular single. Recent times, I absolutely adore Adele. I think as a person, I think she's wonderful. She's exciting to go and watch. I was lucky to go and see her at Wembley.
Seth Adler: Go say hello. Right?
Nigel Trout: Yeah, she's an incredible woman. I'm not sure I would pick out a particular song, but if I had to think of musicians that I would want to go on a desert island with-
Seth Adler: Oh, I like this-
Nigel Trout: I think there would be characters like-
[crosstalk 00:33:19]-
Nigel Trout:... Paul Weller-
Seth Adler: There you go.
Nigel Trout: Would absolutely love Adele there. George Michael, I think he was an absolute superstar. I love the way that he led his life as well. The fact that he was publicly struggling with his sexuality, and the way he was living his life. But when you actually get to understand what he did, he was an incredibly generous person with his friends. He gave an awful amount of money to charity, so I think he would be an incredible person to actually be on a desert island with.
Seth Adler: Kind of as he's getting hit publicly, day after day, he's also doling out the dough at night-
Nigel Trout: Yeah, absolutely. Don't you think it's a tragedy that he's really only be appreciated since he died, I think?
Seth Adler: Yeah, of course. I mean, listen ... That's a very specific thing, being a rock star, and kind of taking everything that goes with it. Then seeing, will you be able to give as well? As you're saying, he not only gave us the music, he also gave philanthropically as well.
Nigel Trout: Yeah. The final person I'd have would be Amy Winehouse, because what a bit of entertainment it would be to have Amy. There wouldn't be a boring moment, would there?
Seth Adler: There would not be a boring moment. That voice is ridiculous. I just wish that ... They told her to go to rehab, and she said, "No, no, no." I just wish you would have said yes.
Nigel Trout: Yeah, very tragic-
Seth Adler: Bittersweet, right?
Nigel Trout: Absolutely.
Seth Adler: Nigel Trout, thank you so much.
Nigel Trout: Thank you sir, pleasure talking to you.
Seth Adler: And there you have Nigel Trout. It's like educating children. You let them know what has happened previously. You let them have experiences. You put those two together, and that's how they develop, which is exactly what's happening with cognitive software. Very much appreciate Nigel and his time. Very much appreciate you and yours. Stay tuned.
